Royce Boyles has become an expert on Vince Lombardi, publishing several books with former Green Bay Packer star, Dave Robinson who played under Lombardi. Boyles has spent years researching and interviewing people around the infamous coach to learn all about the legend. Acting as a catalyst, Boyles tries to bring social justice issues to the forefront of discussion in both his works and in his life.

What is your background in relation to the Green Bay Packers?

I'm from Wisconsin, and I used to be in broadcasting. Then I got out of it. Dave and I went 32 years without seeing each other he got traded out of Green Bay in 1972. It just so happened that in 2004, we were at the same trade show. We saw each other and talk to each other. I knew Dave was bright and I asked him, when he was, he negotiated his contract with the Packers did he have to negotiate directly with Vince Lombardi, and he said yes one on one, and I knew because they were so bright, I thought I knew the answer to the question I was going to ask who's better prepared for the contract negotiation you were him, and Dave said, “Vince every time was better prepared, every time”. He said, “If it was a 36-man roster, Lombardi was better equipped to negotiate every contract with any one player”. He was just so prepared he was so bright.

That was the catalyst, basically, for me saying we're going to write a book about people's interaction with Coach Lombardi and how they interpreted their interaction. So, started writing and I mean it just, it just seemed to happen and I think it was an inspiration, it was   I mean, I was, I was inspired to write about Lombardi because I have admired him since I was a young person, when he got to Wisconsin and the Packers started to win. I knew, obviously that he was a great winning coach, but it was so inspirational when I found out what a man lies beneath. He was the quality human being. Obviously bright, fair, and it became apparent that he taught life first and football second. To me that's remarkable, because he had a locker room full of guys who had reached the pinnacle of their career, and yet he wanted to combine winning with life skills. What he basically told them, is the way you perform here and what you do here is the way you're going to be the rest of your life. The two things complementing each other. If they prepared and they did their best and they gave their very best and they were going to produce the football players, but that also prepared them for life, to be excellent, to not take shortcuts, don't shortchange your team.

One of the people that we interviewed in the book said something that was so telling. He said Lombardi inspired you to play so you wouldn't embarrass the teammates. The other thing that is remarkable to me, is in the three books that Dave and I wrote or 72 chapters, and we interviewed a lot of people. We’ve had many, many conversations on the record and off the record and I can tell you that in none of them, not one person said that there was this scandal around it. In all of those conversations, there wasn't anybody who said, “Oh, but he was a heavy drinker, or do you know that he was really...” He wasn't any of that. I think that also because of who he was. I think that made him more legitimate, and that his players, looked at him, and basically said, “This guy's the real deal”. In his very first meeting with the players. He told them that any racial slurs comments, any of that. We’re not going to be tolerated. He used himself as the example. He said you are not going to call me the names that Italians are sometimes called; you're not going to do that. Then you're not going to do that to each other.

Apparently, he made a huge impression in his first meeting that things had changed in Green Bay and it was more of a marvelous place to play. The great unintelligent coach of the Cleveland Browns Paul Brown used to threaten his players by saying, if you don't perform here, we're going to take you to Green Bay, which was the Siberia of football. By the time Lombardi left, Green Bay was a destination that a lot of players wanted to beat because they wanted to win championships. We had a great question at the tailgate. The question was basically could Lombardi win today. The thing about it with free agency, there are a lot of players who come into the league and they don't have much of a choice about where they're going to play, but they do later on in their careers. I guarantee you that if Lombardi were coaching today and were successful. The real quality players would want to play for him, because they do because they would know that they could win.

I was intrigued by Lombardi and had a passion to learn about him and all of our writing, took a lot of time and a lot of work, but it was one that was. It was the job out of passion and truly the cliché, labor of love. I think for anybody who was writing, write something that your heart's really in.

You became a writer later in life. What did you do before pursing the life of an author?

I got out of broadcasting in 1973, and I did a lot of other things. I was a bar owner, worked in sales, industrial sales in home sales did quite a few things and did a lot of trade shows. The great basketball coach at Ellen McGuire, used to say, get a college education, but then go out into the world, drive a taxi, tend bar, get some real-life experience. Not that that was necessarily what I plan to do but I think that's what happened. That is, I went out into these other jobs. I got life experience that was applicable to writing. It was bit of an advantage to be able to try to understand people from where they came from, because like any sports team, Lombardi's team, players and other people around him were from various backgrounds. I'm 73 years old now, and Dave and I started writing that book and the first one in 2006. There’s a lot of people who don't start building their resumes at 60 years old. It was a life changing experience. I'm glad for the experience of doing it because it's been some remarkable experience and it's opened up my mind to the importance of the people that we see in those uniforms, that those are real human beings and should be treated that way.

There's a line in the play, where the character of Marie Lombardi says, ‘Vince loves his players. I don't mean he just likes them an awful lot. He truly loves his players’. I think that's accurate. He wanted them to be their very, very best. What we learned in writing the book, is his front office people we have a chapter in our book from his correspondence secretary from his public relations man, that in many regards. The way he worked with him was the same way he worked with his players. He wanted that Secretary to be the best one that she could be, and wanted the public relations man to be the best that he could be. That's the same thing with players. You'll hear over and over, that the players will say that they didn't know that they could be as good as what they were, and that wasn't necessarily, I mean if it was from an individual standpoint, but their greatness was because they were the best team. I don't know if they've told you this or not but already with many times, tell us guys, we may not have the best players, we may not have asked us, we may not have the strongest, but we've got the best team, we're working together as a team. That is remarkable because you're going to take that on more than likely in life to wherever you work, and you can look at a family. Here your spouse in a family, and you're a leader in that family or your church or whatever, but you're not always going to have your way, but you're going to have the weight of a team. That was one of the lessons that he taught repeatedly.

Were you ever able to meet Vince Lombardi?

I was working at a caddy at a country club in Wisconsin Rapids Wisconsin when I had the privilege of carrying Lombardi’s clubs about the length of two football fields to coach his car. For that effort I received a $1 tip and an autograph from the great coach. I am right now in my office setting within 15, feet of that autograph. My grade school and high school friend Bobby Johnson caddied for Lombardi. He asked me if I wanted to carry his clubs down on his car, and I got the walk with Vince, talking to him. I still have that vivid memory of the front door of his Pontiac automobile open. He and I were standing there, talking briefly. He was just calm, decent. I mean, could Lombardi be explosive and volatile, absolutely, but he was also a gentleman. He really had a fondness for young people and helping them, helping to shape their lives. I cannot tell you how many hundreds of times I have relived that moment being around this Lombardi. I'm just really grateful to my friend Bobby Johnson that he let me carry those golf clubs, because is one of the most important moments in my life is being, it's kind of that. The subtitle of the Lombardi legacy is 30 People who are touched by greatness. I think that describes me also, having that brief encounter with Lombardi, I truly believe that I was touching my greatness.

It's kind of the same thing with Dave and I. Dave Robinson and I were not in contact for 32 years, and I had no plans at all, it was just coincidental accidental that we were in the same place at the same time, at the Marriott Hotel in Middleton, doing a trade show. I really believe that attend was in that the Dave and I were in the same place at the same time. One of the tremendous compliments I've ever received in my life, Vince Lombardi Jr said I learned some things about my father that I didn't know by reading your books.

I hope a lot of people do learn things about Lombardi that they didn't know from reading our books. Learning that he was a racial pioneer, that he was fair. He was absolutely resolute, his beliefs, things that he did to stand for his players, especially the black players. He opened up the National Football League provide players. If you have the Lombardi Legacy and go into the chapter of Willie Davis, who became one of the most powerful financially successful African Americans in the United States, Willie Davis talks about how Lombardi opened up the National Football League. He said, “Tell you right now Green Bay would be totally misled, if they felt for a minute that Lombardi didn't blaze the way, open the way for bike players and build us into champions.” People in Green Bay shouldn't doubt that green love already opened up the National Football League by using more black players than anybody else. The reason they don't open it up because he wants.  I think the league starting to look around starting to look around and see these players make a difference in Green Bay. The remarkable thing about Lombardi is, Willie Davis said, Vince never let him down. Lombardi never let him down; he never misled him, and he didn't say anything that he wouldn't follow through on. He didn't ask them to be unreasonable.

Vince taught that you can actually have principles and values and live by them, knowing that you may stand up for some things that you really believe in. Are you willing to deal with the consequences of that? I think our country's is grappling with that right now, what do we stand for. I really think for instance when the black Green Bay players couldn't find decent housing in Green Bay, I'll guarantee you there were people sitting in the stands watching Green Bay Packer games in Green Bay who were cheering for those players on Sunday and some of them were landlords who would not rent to the black players the rest of the week. Lombardi helped open that up, he helped open up housing, access to restaurants and fencing for, for his black players. I think that it's very difficult to admire Vince Lombardi, and hold racist, bigoted white supremacist thoughts. If you admire Vince Lombardi and know about those two things are not compatible. That he saw them as human beings not as hired hands for people who ought to be on a plantation. He fought for that. I just really think that Green Bay Packer fans should think about that, that if you admire Vince Lombardi and you're bigoted or racist, you might be cheering for the wrong team.

You've worked on a couple of books and met a lot of different people. Who was your favorite person to meet and interview?

That's tough because there's so many different ones. In the book, the Lombardi Impact, there was a linebacker by the name of Nelson Toburen. We have a chapter on Nelson Toburen who was a linebacker. He was destined for stardom, he was, he was going to be among. I think that the finest players that Lombardi overhead. He broke his neck on the field. Luckily nobody tried to help him up or grabbed his arm or something like that because if they would have severed his spinal cord. But his, his career came to an end that day, on the field. But what Nelson did was through the help of the Packers team doctor. They preserved his spinal cord.  His career was gone he obviously got his salary that year. But, here's this really tough guy Vince Lombardi he paid, he paid Nelson to be around another year salary and nobody knew that. Nelson went on to work really hard, worked a couple jobs, went to law school became an attorney, and became a judge in the state of Kansas. He had personal because I asked him if that broken neck was the most difficult thing that's happened in your life and he said no. He lost a son who was a military pilot training accident killed, and he had a daughter who had some medical issues and she died. When it comes to resiliency and Lombardi has the great quote about, it's not so much if you fall, but that you get back up and I think Nelson Toburen is just the absolute epitome of true gentlemen, just a great family man. 

Certainly, Nelson Toburen is dear to my heart, I really, I love that man. The other person, in our books is in the Lombardi Legacy. A white Mormon woman by the name of Vicki Winker, and she married one of the black players in 1965. When it comes to real courage of standing up for what you believe in for the person that you love. Vicki may be the most courageous in that sense of all the already people that I've met, because she was called all the names that go along with what she did, she married a black person.

Vicki is just remarkable for what she did and in Lionel had his mental health problems and so on later. Vicki's system of remarkable woman. There's by the way, there is a piece. It was in Milwaukee magazine several years ago, called “The long road home”. Vicki is remarkably strong. I think both of those people Nelson Toburen and Vicki. One was physical and emotional toughness and certainly Vicki for what she believed in, she, she had to endure a lot to marry the man that she loved.

She said without Vince Lombardi, their marriage would not have it wouldn't have happened. She says in her book she loves them and because of these, he supported them in something that certainly was not popular at the time. When you look at those things, those are the things about Lombardi. I mean that winning percentage of over 73% is just astonishing. But when you look at what he did for people and how he supported them, and how he stood for.

What we used to think were the right values in this country. To me that's even more remarkable. One of a kind man.

Since writing your books, you've become an authority on the Packers especially during that era. How does it feel to be referenced and utilize as a tool like that for people to see how accurate things other people's works are?

I'm flattered. I think it's just that we found things that were actually truthful. It isn't like I invented the Rubik's Cube, but just that we found it. I do take a tremendous amount of satisfaction in what we did. The reason that I was able to do this is because of Dave Robinson. When Dave and I decided to go forward with this, I had automatic credibility with the people that we interviewed. I think just because of how much they respect and admire Dave Robinson and like him that I got the benefit of that. People opened up more than what they would have if I would have done this on my own. There's no way that I would get the access to people that I got. Before I get feeling too proud about what I did, without Dave Robinson, it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. I take a great deal of pride in our work, but I also know that it's like almost anything in life, we didn't do it by ourselves.

I will always be grateful to have known Dave Robinson, who, to me, is just the epitome of a Lombardi man; he's bright, he's educated, he's loyal, great competitor. He is such an ambassador for the game that he loves and great family man. Just a wonderful friend. We were so just honored and privileged to have Dave as the best man at my wedding here two and a half years ago. It was phenomenal.

I do remember when I was writing the books, you dream. Everybody's going to write the next Harry Potter. We came up a little short on that. But we still recorded and wrote some really accurate good books about a tremendous human being. I could remember, I was in my warehouse and I was practicing my autograph thinking, ‘Boy, when we start selling books, I'm going to get to sign my autograph.’ A lot of that dream came true. That's what I think I'd like to tell people is, pursue your dreams. I was 60 years old or whatever when I started doing this. I don't know if it's a dream come true, because I don't think I could have dreamt it that well. Still, there is that little boy I guess inside as this senior citizen is practicing his autograph in hope, he has a chance to do it, which has been a privilege every time.

I interviewed a ball player years ago and people just, it was very popular ball player and somebody wanted his autograph. I asked him about that and he said as long as anybody thinks that my autograph is valuable, it's a privilege for me to give it to them. I feel the same way about that. It's just a privilege to be referenced as an authority on Vince Lombardi, because it's a reference on something that is so American. It is just so fundamentally American what Vince Lombardi was. He loved our country. He was a very religious man as the play pointed out. Did he have some flaws? Yeah, we all do the only one that didn't get crucified him, so we've all got flaws, but it's of the of the human beings that I have met in my life. Become an expert on one. This worked out really well, because to be an expert on being somebody is truly to be an expert on a really great human being.

What advice or support can you offer to upcoming new inspired writers who want to be like you?

Well, they want to be like me, I would say do something else. Don't be like me, be a writer. I would say do it, sit down and write. Young or old, if you want to write, sit down and write and give yourself permission to. I just read something today that said, writing is rewriting. If you want to write, sit down and write, and then go back over and improve it and make it better. Don't feel bad because you didn't get it perfect the first time, or get it the way you wanted the first time. Just begin. That old Chinese proverb about journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. Take the first step. Do it. Be bold and give yourself permission to look back on your stuff and it may sound silly and all that. When you look back on it and you find out that you've done better. That means you've grown, you've improved. So, just begin. Sit down and open up your mind and see what comes out of it, write it down. You are writing what's coming out of your mind, and out of your heart, and just do it, improve it and get better at it. Enjoy it and give yourself permission to not get it right the first time.

Do you have any current pieces in the works?

What I see me doing for the rest of my life is writing and trying to be creative and about things that are in it'll probably have something to do with social commentary, and maybe based out of sports and football. I have a play that I'm writing right now it's called Brain Donor. It has to do with one of those despicable television evangelical preachers who gets who gets a brain donated to him when, when he, when he dies, from an African American football player. It's really funny, because a lot of those TV preachers just want to gobble up all the money they can and take them out of our small communities and out of our food pantries and women's shelters and deny our homeless veterans and so on. Then this brain from the football player is from a man who actually cares about people who don't have a strong voice in our society or a strong place.

It sets up what's necessary I guess in every movie or play and that is a conflict. It also exposes that long standing discrimination in professional football, that is prevalent to this day. Here we are about to go into the year 2022 and we don't have a football team that is owned by African Americans. If we did have one of those. There are some practices in the National Football League. That would be challenged. Today, there are, what, three, four head football coaches were African American, three or four general managers who are African American, and 70% of the players are black.  It’s the old thing; people think, ‘Oh they're too dumb to be coaches, they're too dumb to be general managers.’ No, they're not, but it's a good old boys’ network that runs that league.

It's astounding to me, that when Colin Kaepernick of the San Francisco 49ers was taking a knee during the national anthem, protesting the lack of social justice and racial equality, they ran him out of the league. He never even got to trial. About a week after George Floyd was killed and the Black Lives Matter and the protests were in the streets, Roger Goodell, the commissioner of the National Football League finally said, “Oh I get it. I understand what Colin Kaepernick was talking about now and what he was doing”. That's an insult to anybody who can think. You mean to tell me that here, Roger Goodell is getting paid over $44 million a year and what he's trying to tell us that he as the Commissioner and the other 32 owners were all too stupid and they couldn't figure out what Colin Kaepernick was doing? No, they knew. About a week after George Floyd get murdered. Roger Goodell pledges $250 million from the National Football League to racial equality and social justice programs. Yet, 51 weeks later, a year later, the National Football League draft drop this practice of racial norming, which is a practice used in settling the concussion lawsuits. They had racial norming is basically a practice that says, fundamentally to begin black players are not as intelligent as white players, and therefore, it was more difficult for them to prove for the black players to prove that there had been a decrease in their cognitive skills due to head injuries. After Roger Goodell said, I get it, I pledge $250 million, 51 weeks later, they publicly have to admit that they were using race norming, and that they were discriminating against black players. No, they're still doing it.

Football is kind of a backdrop to what I may be continuing to write about, but my heart goes out to the people who don't have power and if anybody believes for a fraction of a second against Lombardi only stood up for the powerful. No that's not true, Vince Lombardi stood up for the underdog. He didn't physically his quarterback that won five championships for him, Bart Starr. Bart Starr was not the most gifted physically quarterback, by far. He got everything out of, and he was a leader and he had those qualities. I think that, I've been inspired by Lombardi to stand up for those who are not necessarily blessed with a great deal of surprise only an average student I happen to find some of my old report cards from like third and fourth grade. Here at 73 years old, I’m looking at my grades from those things, wondering am I going to get out of third grade. I was an average student.

Even so, I am going to try to help give a voice to those people into those causes, pauses involve people and to try to help people who are not as fortunate, is what so many others are in this country. I think that really is a Lombardi kind of tradition.